The Liverpool Connection Podcast
The Liverpool Connection Podcast
Football and Music 1:1 with Mark Archer of Altern 8
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Hi, this is Chris Hawkins and you're listening to the Liverpool Connection podcast. Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Liverpool Connection podcast. I am Daz. If you didn't know already, usually we do a footy podcast, as most people will know listening to the shows. I also do a football and music one-on-one episodes, which have been going really well.
Speaker 1:My next guest is not a football fan but I'm a massive fan of his, you know, from the early 80s. As everyone knows, I love my house music. I go on and on and on about it, but we're just going to talk music today. Actually, he might talk a little bit about his dad. His dad was a goalkeeper, so maybe touch on that, and then pretty much why he doesn't support football. So there are people out there that don't like footy and that's okay, but we're going to talk music today. I'm so grateful to have him on, mr Mark Archer. People over here might know him better as alternate um, massive, massive, uh, part of the rave scene in england. Uh, back in the day and still going strong. So, uh, mark, welcome to uh the episode. It's great to have you on. So I'll just ask you quickly about your dad. You know you said he was an aspiring goalkeeper, had a few yeah, I think he actually tried out for Villa.
Speaker 2:I mean he was a massive football fan, him and his dad. You know they both used to go to watch Wolves, being from around Wolverham, dad, you know they both used to go um to watch wolves um being from around wolverhampton. You know that was their, their local team um the village where I was born. I mean, this is going to age me really bad but there's a player called derrick dugan who some people might remember um that, uh, he lived in the village.
Speaker 2:I mean there was even a next door neighbor with a, a player from. I think he was named Steve Daly and he played for Coventry um, but because my dad was that into football, um, and he tried out for Villa as a goalie and he did football coaching at the school which was like four doors away from where we lived, so he was always trying to get me involved playing and I was absolutely crap at it. So, you know, I just felt bad every time I tried to play football. There was loads of people like way better than me and I was, you know, going offside and all this not knowing what the rules were and stuff, and it just kind of put me off in the end because I was that bad at it. You know I like a kickabout, but anything more than that it's. You know I'm just too bad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was the opposite, because my dad was massively into rugby and he's a brummie lad, uh. And then he went to school with ozzy osbourne, which I found out, you know. I mean, I I grew up with deep purple black sabbath. You, my dad was a full rocker but he was into rugby and I was like, nah, that's not for me. You know, I went more the football route. Yeah, you know, I enjoy that so much. But getting back to your roots, because I asked a lot of musicians like what their parents were listening to at the time, you know, as you know, you're a young lad what, what kind of music was your, your parents, into?
Speaker 2:Um, I mean, the radio was on all the time, um, more radio too than anything else, um, so it was just, it was always there was always music on. You know, even if people weren't in the kitchen, the radio would be on in there. So I liked pretty much everything. I mean, my mom was a massive Johnny Mathis fan, which is not something I was into at all. My dad was into Barry White and Detroit spinners and and stuff like that, but he I also liked a lot of new stuff.
Speaker 2:That was that's coming out. I mean, one of his all-time favorites was at bruce hornsby in the range, the way it is, you know. So he was. He was into like loads of stuff, um, but again, with the radio being on all the time, there were certain things that I've realized, looking back at it, that I picked out, like, um, a lot of the disco stuff in the chic groups, like that, and then, when, um, you'd hear like the odd early rap thing on on the radio and like the message, you know, those are the kind of things that I really gravitated towards yeah, it's.
Speaker 1:I think it's so different. You know the generation now is very technologically like advanced. You know there's always something on their phone is on the telly's on. But back in the day for us it was the radio. It just was the radio would be playing throughout the house. You know, you only really turn the telly on for special events. I mean for me it was, you know, football, saturdays, match of the day, stuff, but yeah, always the radio. You know, like one upstairs, one in the kitchen, always.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and when something good came on, my dad always shouted someone to turn it up. You know so always blaring. Yeah, have a cup to turn it up, you know so always blaring yeah, have a cup of tea.
Speaker 1:Or you know your parents have their their little wine or gin and tonic. You know you might be able to have a shandy with them. But maybe keep the sandwiches for me on a Saturday. Yeah, shandy and cute. Yeah, we were. Do you keep the sandwiches for me on a Saturday? Yeah, yeah, sandy and Q. Yeah, we were, we were, you know.
Speaker 2:Living at large. Yeah, living the dream.
Speaker 1:So when did you start like really like what, especially with Acid House? You know you had a guy called Geralderald and and all that good stuff. But when? When did you first start like, did you go out to clubs and and start going? You know, I'm really getting into the this side of the music. I, I, I want to be a dj or you want to produce.
Speaker 2:I mean, I left school in 84 but I was already like buying records and listening to radio, doing loads of tapes, doing pause button mixes and stuff, and I wanted to be a DJ. But the town where we lived, or lived near Stafford, there was only so many clubs as they already had, you know, their own like resident DJ. So there wasn't any you know anywhere really for me to go. Um, so even though I wanted to be a DJ, I knew that probably wasn't going to happen. So I became a decorator. So you know the, the need to start paying my mum and dad a bit of board money. Um, and I, I got laid off after a year or two there, you know I was like the last in the first out when there wasn't that much work.
Speaker 2:And back back like a few years previously, the breakdancing days, I bumped into a bunch of guys from Stafford. One of the guys, dean. He was more into like the, the mixing side of things. You know the rest were like really good with the, the breakdancing stuff. He did a bit of popping but he was like more the DJ. And just by chance bumped into him again early on in 88. And he got a set of decks at home and said, oh well, you know, why don't you come round?
Speaker 2:And I hadn't like thought about making music. I just wanted to work out how certain things were done, because I used to buy like a lot of the electro tapes and there were certain bits on tracks where I was like I wonder how that's done. So I got a little Casio sampling keyboard from Dixon's and it's only tiny, you know. You know you couldn't like make tracks with it properly, but you could sample things. So you'd hold it like next to the speaker, wait for the noise, press, sample and record it. And so I worked out how to do certain production techniques on it. And he knew I'd got a keyboard. So I took the keyboard to his um and he'd like mix between two copies of different drum breaks and I'd play like little bits over over the top and we did a demo cassette.
Speaker 2:But he didn't think anything of it. Really, you know, we weren't like, oh, we're going to be like musicians or whatever. And then, um, that same year, a recording studio opened in stafford where they were getting like bands in, you know, like local rock bands who just wanted to record their demos and stuff. So we decided to take this tape that we'd done um, played it to the bloke who ran the studio and he signed us up there and then. So it was all like purely by luck, you know that I bumped into Dean, that I got the boot from the decorating place, the studio opened, we got signed up. It's all a bit, you know, went a bit quick.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it just seems a bit mental, Like, you know, people talk about fate, but it does happen. Yeah, oh, totally With the decks. Were they belt-driven or were they? Because, I know a lot of people that started on some decks that they have to use like a cup to actually, you know, move the platter. So did he have the proper?
Speaker 2:Well, he actually had a pair of Technics 1200s. I mean, I wasn't so fortunate and I learned to mix by playing a tape of a certain track and then add, like a normal deck, and say I played Planet rock on on the cassette and I had rainforest by paul hardcastle and I'd speed it up or slow it down using my finger to get it in time with the tape. So there's no way of recording it, but it was just so you knew you could beat match kind of thing. And then I progressed from there onto a pair of belt drives and then on to 1200s.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think when you first start on like not techniques, I think your DJing skills get a bit better. For when you do go on techniques because I was the same I started on two of my dad's old ones, you know, and I bought a little mixer. I was able to finagle them together and, you know, obviously it didn't sound the best in the world. But then, a couple of years later, once you know, I was able, on the YTF scheme, my first, I bought my first pair of decks and, um, yeah, never look back. I mean, techniques are, you know, just top of the range for me and it's just so much easier. And I was just like, oh, wow, this is what it's all about. It doesn't sound like, you know, a choo-choo train coming down the down the track.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, smash into something yeah, I've still got a couple of my old, my old tapes that I did use in the um the belt drives and yeah, you know where you can you like they slur in when you you push them and then you've got to. Then they're not as forgiving. Um, I think, because techniques are, you know, so much sturdier, you know you can, you can manipulate stuff a.
Speaker 1:Did you? I always like to ask this for DJs as well were you more of a? Because it is weird, because there are discussions, you know, in loads of groups. Did you ride the pitch or did you touch the platter? Touch the platter, like always. Yeah, tons of people are like, you know, you should just use the pitch and I I've actually never really done that. I've done that. You know, slow down, fasten up with with the platter, so you're the platter side.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I've seen people who ride the pitch. I mean there's, there's this one, dj tasha. She's absolutely amazing. I mean she was on. I recently did um boomtown festival and she was on before me and each how, how she keeps things in time where I've seen other djs. And it's like you know, it's going too slow and it's it's going out both ways too. And it's like you know, it's going too slow and it's going out both ways. It's too slow, it's too fast, you know. So it's a skill that I don't earn and I don't. It's a bit late in the day for me to try and learn that one, I reckon.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I know Dave Clark, he's a pitch rider. Yeah, Just, some people are just like, have that ear, you know that skillset where they can. Just Derek Carter is another one and they just use the pitch and I'm just like you know, well played lads, I can't, there's just no chance. So for your, you know, obviously you progressed from your little Casio. What was your next next bit?
Speaker 2:bit of gear um, I mean all the way through being signed to blue chick, which was the first label that we got signed to at the studio in stafford. Um, we were given like studio time, so we used that recording studio. We worked at the studio myself and dean um as engineers, so if anyone paid to go in the studio we'd engineer for them. And then when no one was in the studio, we just like worked on tracks ourselves. So we were like firing out like loads of albums, breakbeat albums, and we did the nexus 21, the bizarre ink first album. But it wasn't until the end of 89 when that that's, the studio closed and I pretty much thought that, you know, that was my music career over. And then chance meeting again bumped and then Chance Meeting again bumped into the boss of Network Records in a nightclub near Birmingham and they signed us up and we actually got some money when we signed to them and actually started getting paid royalties for the music that they put out. You know it's the first time I'd ever seen any money from anything that I've done and I've been doing it for like two, two years.
Speaker 2:Um, so the first thing I bought when we signed to them was a, an Akai sampler because I was more of the. I wasn't great at playing keyboards, so I was more into, you know, like sampling drums and sampling sounds and loops and bits like that and making tracks up myself. So it was a very primitive setup that I, that I had right at the very start, doing um, alternate, um, just that sampler. Then I bought a little drum machine that I used to like sequence, the, the samples together and that that's how, like a lot of the first album was made on that, those two pieces of kit that's so crazy, you know, because obviously technology has grown and you know you can sit in front of a computer and make a whole album.
Speaker 1:You know, on ableton pro tools, you know, uh, so just having those two pieces of kit just blows my mind like the amount of like music you can get from those those. You know two things, you know. And then you, you see, you know loads of musicians now they have racks and racks of stuff, you know, like Liam Howler from the Prodigy, you know. So, from just going from that, though, I mean, and, and you say, getting paid too is always nice, you know, especially in this world, the DJ producer world, you know, it's usually when you're first starting out, it's like you play basically for free, yeah, just to get your name out. Um, how hard was it for you, you know, because obviously that's the beginning of, of the rave scene. You know, the 88, 89 started, the acid started coming out. Um, how, how difficult was was it for you to start getting, you know, alternate out there.
Speaker 2:I mean, like I said, a lot of it was purely by luck. I mean, we'd done the Nexus 21 album that came out and we didn't know if anyone had bought it, we didn't know how many had sold, didn't get any money for it. So, bumping into a record label boss and him saying, oh, I've got your album at the office, we were going to try and contact you, which is obviously you know, back then it's very difficult to you know, you, you buy an album and then, like the studio had gone bump so there was no way of contacting us through them. It's like how on earth would you get in contact with us? So it was, like, you know, a bit of a miracle that I just bumped into them at a, at a club, um, and like totally backed what we were doing, got one of our tracks that we'd already recorded on the original album. And because what we were trying to do was like Detroit techno, within three months of us signing to the label, they sent us out to Detroit to work with the people who were at that time, you know, like my musical heroes, you know, for a week so that we could work on, you know, our production skills and learn stuff from the people who were doing it.
Speaker 2:But the ultimate thing came as like a sideline, really like a sideline really, because we'd recorded like an extra nine tracks that didn't sound like Nexus 21. And the label because there was great interest in network records right at the start and they're like have you got any more stuff that we can put out to fill out their release schedule? And we said, well, we've got these nine tracks here, played them to them. They said they don't really sound like Nexus 21. Can you think of another name? And we'll put them out, just to you know, like an eight-track EP. They're like eight of the tracks. Just put it out. Eight tracks, no promotion, no DJ copies, just put it out. Tracks, no promotion, no DJ copies, just put it out, see if it sells. So he said, oh yeah, chris used to be in a band called Alien 8 and that's what we'll call it.
Speaker 2:And when the records turned up at the label, they phoned us up, went over there to have a look, opened the box, pulled out a record and he says alternate on the top. I'm like that's not what we're supposed to be called. They said, well, it's too late now. It's all on the record, stickers are drawn and everything. And luckily that record sold really well, I mean not, you know, like in a chart kind of way, but to DJs of the time. So, like you know, as the rave scene was building, a lot of DJs getting into it and they'd rather buy an eight-track, 12-inch than, say, an American 12. That's got like one track that they like on it.
Speaker 2:So when we did Infiltrate as a follow-up bearing in mind we still weren't that serious about alternate. You know we'd done this side project where we'd used up like eight old tracks and then we were asked to do a remix for somebody else and did the remix still got like four hours studio time. So recorded infiltrate um, it was just a track I wanted, you know, break beats, air horns, acid noises, sub bass, you know everything all rolled into one um and because the eight tracker had sold really well, people were waiting for a follow-up. So infiltrate, kind of like got into the lower end of the charts and that's when things started to go a bit mad and we started to be a bit more serious about it because it was taken off more than the nexus 21 thing. That was our like serious project it's.
Speaker 1:You know also, record stores back in the day were huge. You know you'd have kids going in and I spent so many, so many hours in a record store and I'd come out with one track. You know you just would. But I think that that helped push bands like yourself.
Speaker 1:You know alternate was more underground, even though you know you finally did get on top of the pops, which is just mental to say like you were on top of the pops. I mean again, you know I'm an english lad that used to watch top of the pops as a kid yeah, as a kid and watch these people all my miming you know from, you know rockers to punks to whatever. And then you know you're, you're on top of the pops and it's probably one of the most bizarre things because I think when you first were on it the crowd looked like they'd never heard anything like that before. And I really want to ask you too about there's a I saw it in. It's called the 90s rave group and someone had actually pointed out there's a bottle of vicks vapor rub yeah I'd never seen that before.
Speaker 1:Um, so that that kind of gave me a chuckle. Because you know the whole vicks vapor rub and you know what went on in the in the rave scene and where, where did the like outfits come from? You know, because I I talked to to leroy and from the prodigy about like you know where, because they were clownish outfits. Yeah, you know, I was just like where, where did the idea to wear like clown outfits? And he was like well, they're not really clown outfits, they. They were actually made by a friend of ours. So you know how did those outfits come about? Because, you know, once I saw the masks, then they seemed to take off with everyone. Everyone from the UK to the US was wearing the masks. So how did the idea? Because you know we look at DJs now and then you've got like people like Marshmello Dead Force. You know they wear these masks or you know whatever LEDs got in there. But for me it was something totally different what you lads did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it wasn't. We didn't think like to have an image to set us apart from everyone. We were still doing early 91, we were still doing live gigs at raves as next to 21. There was like a bit of a tour where it was network records and Warp records. So there was LFO Nightmares on Wax, rhythmatic and Nexus 21. And we did one gig at the Eclipse in Coventry. So all four groups did you know like your live thing? And it was me and Chris, two ex-stans. He had a keyboard, I had a 909. Come on stage, play live, go off.
Speaker 2:And then we got booked because Infiltrate 202 was on promo and lots of DJs were playing it. They were like, right, we want to be the first people to book alternate to do a PA. And we're like we haven't even got enough tracks really to do a PA. Oh, you know what are we really to do a PA? Um, oh, you know what are we gonna do? And my brother was in the RAF at the time and I said, have you got anything you know, like camouflage or whatever we can put on so we don't look like how we did the last gig? And he's like I've got two of these NBC suits which are nuclear, chemical, biology, warfare suits, um. So we put those on and if you put, if you get like a hood and pull it and pull the cords, you look like a right wally. So I thought we'll cover the rest of our face with a mask. So I just went and bought two masks just to fill the rest of the gap and because of the whole acid housing you know, and they used to have like a lot of the the day globe stuff with the uv lights, so I thought I'll paint them, stick an a on for alternate. That will do. I mean the the bit at the front. I'd actually painted it with tippets and then written alternate in block letters, then filled them out with a highlighter and then drawn around in black and then covered it in sellotape so it didn't crack. So it was probably like proper diy because we thought we'd do this one gig and that'd be it. We'd never do another, another pa again.
Speaker 2:I wrote a couple of extra like tracks on the with my uh sampler and and the drum machine. So I think I did a track called Say it All, which eventually became Evaporate, and then the original demo of Activate and then we got Infiltrate and then I think two tracks off that eight tracker. So it just made up a PA and we went out and did it and it was. I mean you can actually see in the Infiltrate 202 video that was our first ever PA that we did. The footage was in the Eclipse and that's how the suits came about. Didn't think we'd get another gig, didn't even wash them for like maybe six months, to the point, you know they probably got up on stage themselves. They hummed that much and in the end we had to get like embroidery done and you know, do it a bit better than the old T-Pex.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as they say, the rest is history, because you know it's just gone down in folklore. You know that those suits and the masks, nobody else did it, did it. No, no.
Speaker 2:I mean there's a good reason, because you imagine how hot it was in a nightclub back then. I mean, even now there's some places that don't have, um, air conditioning and then you put that stupid suit on. You know, it's like I, I get asked to wear it. Even now, you know, and it's 30 years ago, it was difficult. Now, you know, I can, I can hack it for like half an hour and then it's got to come off because it's just, it's just too warm well, it's like the boomtown gig.
Speaker 1:You put it on for the first like 30 minutes and then you're like I'm not having this.
Speaker 2:That's it. It's got to come off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you're breathing funny. I mean, you know the COVID days we had to wear masks. That was badly, not, you know, totally so having to wear that on stage for like an hour, I, yeah, I can imagine, you know, sweat dripping off the walls exactly and that's.
Speaker 2:That's another reason we put the the vis vix in in the masks, because if you imagine you're recycling that air for an hour, yeah, they're not. They're not the nicest when you take them off. So we put v in, so at least it was a bit more pleasant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would say so, and I'm sure the breath didn't smell too good after an hour yeah exactly Doing that, but I want you to actually tell the little story because we'll bring Liverpool into this. I know you talked about it before, but, uh, you know, obviously I'm a big, massive liverpool fan. But you've played in liverpool and, uh, you said it ain't in aintree, at a warehouse that none of your mates seem to know where, where, where it was. You know what's it called, but, yeah, can you tell us a little bit about that?
Speaker 2:I mean we did a fair few gigs in Liverpool. I mean we played at Quadrant Park as Nexus 21. I mean, like, derek May was there that night and we were setting up, you know, and did like a live PA as Nexus 21. And then when the infiltrate took off and we started getting bookings as as alternate, um, I think it was towards the end of 91 and we were asked to do a gig near entry. It's a massive warehouse and I've got some photos of it somewhere, because there was a photographer and a journalist from a magazine came out to the gig with us and took photos and each of us stood behind this massive stack of speakers. You could see all the little wheels on the back of the speakers there. Me and Chris stood there and they did like a whole magazine piece about this gig.
Speaker 2:But we knew that the next single was going to be evaporate. Um, and it started out life as a track called say you're. And then we I took the demo that I've done at home into the studio and we embellished on it and then came up with the name Evaporate. So we said to our MC what we want you to do at the end of the gig when it's all died down a bit. There's still a bit of cheering, but not too much, so we can hear you Just shout Evaporate. No one will know what it means. You know the state of a lot of people at gigs back then. You know half of them probably didn't even know we were on stage. To be honest, you know it's just people were there and dancing, so we did the whole PA.
Speaker 2:Last track finished crowd cheer as it starts to die down. These shouts evaporate. The crowd went off again just because these shouts evaporate. Crowd went off again just because he shouted evaporate. But the sound engineer at the gig recorded it and then we took the tape back to the studio, sampled the MC shouting evaporate of it and put it into the track. I mean, a few years later that gig turned up on eBay as a bootleg CD and I had to buy a copy even though I knew what the tracks were. But it's just nice that that moment was captured. I mean I don't think I kept the cassette. I mean in hindsight it would have been a bit of a clever idea to keep the original cassette, but at least I've got a bootleg copy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that you paid for, yeah, exactly, buying your own demo. That's bizarre. Yeah, I had many, many, many a night and day in Quadrant Park, many a night and day in quadrant park, like, uh, it just really, you know, even though there was a lot of clubs around back back in the day, quadrant park to me, and, and shelly's as well, and we'll get on to in a minute but they're just the energy, the togetherness, and yeah, you know that that I just, you know, I don't want to be that old fart that kind of always says, well, you know, back in my day it was better. Yeah, each generation has their own, their own thing, you know, and in a lot, a lot of groups, just you know, especially with the, the dj and stuff, now it just seems to be a little easier because of the sync button and all of this stuff. You know, I would never change it for the world growing up when I did.
Speaker 1:You know I'm also able to see this new generation and how they DJ and how they produce, which is great because they are. They're coming back to the old school, you know. They're listening to your tracks, they're listening to SL2, slipmats, just all the old stuff, but they've got the technology now to do their own thing and I think that's brilliant. I have no problem with with you know, this new generation edm I don't like that term, yeah, very americanized, bastardize it, but at the end of the day it is dance music, you know, and you don't have to listen to. You know some of the more poppy edm stuff. You know.
Speaker 1:Dance music to me is dance music. 80s music is dance music. You know some of the more poppy edm stuff. You know. Dance music to me is dance music. 80s music is dance music, you know. And stuff like depeche modes, joy division, new order that's dance music as well. So, um, I'm sure you've seen a massive change. How, how has your your working as you're, you're working process like do you do you still? Are you like more technologically advanced now? Do you do able-turned pro tools or do you stick with?
Speaker 2:you know the hardware, um, I think that, like towards the the mid to late 90s, was the bit where I peaked with technology, because I'd managed to gather up all the bits of gear that I really wanted and managed to. I'd learnt lots of production techniques. So I knew then what I wanted to know in 88, you know so, whereas some people, like you know they, were producing proper on-point stuff in 88. I never felt that, you know, our stuff was passable. But by like 96, 97, I'd learned everything and I was making the stuff that I'd always wanted to make. But I guess I got out of the actual engineering recording side of it.
Speaker 2:I've always been more of a person who turns up with a bunch of ideas or a pile of records, and you know I'm still that person and so, like I work with uh, shadow child a lot now. Um, you know, we record stuff under our own names and as mask as well. She stands for mark archer, shadow child, um, and I'll go in there and he's on exactly the same page as me, you, you know, ideas wise. So we're like we're working on a track and I'll just about to say what about, and he's already doing it, but he's like an absolute, you know, studio wizard. So I just, I just sit there on a swivel chair, yep, yep, I like this, I like this, and he's already doing stuff, you know. So how about reversing that?
Speaker 1:keep going there, and and so you know, I'm not, I'm not the person who messes about with, uh, the technology anymore, to be honest yeah, it's kind of like I'm a massive fan of sasha and I don't think he would be as big as he is, like producing-wise, because he's got the likes of Charlie May who, again, is kind of like a shadow child. He's a musical genius, you know, in the studio producing-wise, and you know we all need that little bit of help, you know, to get that idea out. Yeah, I'm kind of the same, you know I I do some of my own stuff. It's just for me not not to put out. You know, um, and even same with mixes as well. You know you'll make a mix and then it'll just, it'll just stay there. It doesn't go on sound cloud and mix cloud, but it's. It's that, especially with Shadowchild as well. You know I love his productions as well, but you're getting, you know, the old with the new. Yeah, and there's no difference, if you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like you're bringing these old ideas as well as new and he's bringing new ideas, but it just sounds classic, yeah, and no, he's got the same kind of influences, like my influences came from before hardcore, but he's, his influences are hardcore and early jungle. So he, he knows exactly how to make stuff that authentic. I mean, when I was at school we had probably one computer for the entire school but the entire school didn't have, weren't able to use it, it was like the computer club. Whereas when he was at school they had a music department and they had a 303 and a sampler.
Speaker 2:You know he's's like how amazing is that? So he was already being able to knock out tracks and he's got that with tunes on that he made at school, you know, which is just. You know he's mind-blowing, but you know that that was in like the early to mid 90s. So he knows all. You know all the kind of production techniques and how to do stuff. So he's like, although he's known for one kind of sound, if you listen to a lot of his releases, he's banging to jungle and and he's he did an ep, a shadow child ep that samples like chrome and time and stuff like that, like vocal samples off off rave cassettes, but it's proper authentic, late 1990, early hardcore. You know you swear blind that it was made back then you see.
Speaker 1:So on point yeah, his bass lines are just incredible and you just know it's a shadow child record, you know. And same with yourselves with Alternate. You knew it was Alternate. I want to ask you definitely about Top of the Pops because, again, you know, as I said before, it's my age, we would all get in front of the telly, you know tea and stuff, but for a, you know, a rave act to go on Top of the Pops, basically, mime, when you got that call, like obviously you know you watched Top of the P, when, when you was growing up, yeah, to get get an actual call to say can you come and you know play, yeah, but obviously it's great exposure, but you know to to go on there and just, you know, for five minutes, just mind your what, what you're doing, like that must have been a good laugh yeah it's.
Speaker 2:I mean it's. It's a weird one, because throughout the the whole process of of you having a big record, you'd get like what's called a midweek chart position. So it's it's say Wednesday, thursday, and they tell you where you're at in the charts and what they think you're going to be at the end of the week when there's the chart rundown. So you're already having your head blown like, oh my god, you know, we've got like a midweek of 21 or something. It's like I'm actually in the charts, you know, and you don't know what to do. You put the phone down. It's like what am I supposed to do? Do I phone up first? And then you get in the charts and then the label sends someone to a meeting and they are well, they want to know what. What are you going to do? That's different, on top of the pops. So you have to kind of sell yourself like no one's done this before. So they think, oh, actually no one's done that before, we'll get you on. So then you get the call saying like right, you're on top of the pops and you have to go down there on a Wednesday and they record it as is. For how you see it on a Thursday is how they record it. So they do like the.
Speaker 2:The intro titles goes to the person who introduces the first band. Then the cameras go on there and then, while they're there, there's another group on another stage. There's like four different stages and then while they're introducing the next one, they move the crowd to the front of that stage and then the camera's gone now and it's all done in half an hour. But you have to do about four different rehearsals during the day. So the first one, you just stood there. They're like stand there and we'll like position the cameras around it. And then you do another one where move, like you're going to move tonight. I haven't planned on what I was going to do, but all right then. And then they whoever moves the most, they then work the cameras around that, so you get on tv a bit more.
Speaker 2:Then you do one with the like a dress rehearsal, so you've got all these lights, the stupid suits on, sweating buckets. And then they do the one where it's like right, we're recording this and you've got to do it, but it's all recorded at the same studios as EastEnders. So when you go on a break to the canteen, the Mitchell brothers are sat there and Doc Cotton walks past you and then you're on top of the pops with like Cher, tina Turner, and they're all walking past and you're just like you know. You feel like a five-year-old. Just why on earth am I here?
Speaker 2:But it's all, because if you imagine how many raves were on each weekend and your tunes getting played at these raves, if only a tiny percentage of those people go out and buy your song when it's released, boom, you're catapulted into the charts. You've you've gotten you know no power over how that happens, unless you don't make enough records and the record label have ploughed money into you. They've paid for things and they want to recoup that money. So the minute they think they can make their money back, they go right, we're going to produce X amount of records to make sure there's enough for demand. So then your tune's going bam, bam, bam. And I mean we went on top of the pops. It was actually shown uh, over here last friday. Uh, they're doing reruns of 91 and we went in the charts and I thought that's it. We're going out with like no one's gonna like this the week after and, absolute miracle, we went up and carried on going up until we got to number three well, it must have been so bizarre.
Speaker 1:You know, I I couldn't imagine share or anyone else walking past. You's like in your alternate skies going yeah we got to the real way it looks.
Speaker 2:You know people like what? Because we were the only weird looks. You know people like because we were the only ones really wearing that kind of thing. People like who are you and why have you got that on?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So take me back to Shelly's, the story of, you know, playing in the car park. I would love to have been there. Coming out of Shelley's, you know, obviously 80%, 90% smashed, yeah, yeah. And you two on a lorry, you know, doing your thing. Who's brilliant, because it is is brilliant. Whose brilliant idea was it to to do that?
Speaker 2:well it was. It was an idea that was like bounced about. You know, we with a few people, it's like somebody we thought because we played the the very first acetate of Activate took it to Shelley's, because I used to go there. If we weren't doing a PA I was at Shelley's or the Eclipse. You know, like you say about Quadrant Park, everywhere had their big club, you know so, coventry had the Eclipse, liverpool had Quadrant Park, stoke had Shelley's. So we took the acetate and the MC stopped everything and he's like right, this is the new single by Alternate. Put it on absolutely went off and it was just like the support that we got from the club is like it'd be nice to give something back. So like, like you've said, when people came out of a club, most people went to the car park, opened the doors, turned the stereo on, everyone danced around cars and I never got like why would people want to? You've just come out of a nightclub and now you're listening to a pair of little dodgy Alpine speakers like that's probably flapping. Wouldn't it be good if we did, you know, like a proper 5K sound system on the back of a truck and did a bit of a PA? That way we could get some like footage for the video. So it was all planned.
Speaker 2:We turned up like half five in the afternoon with the truck parked up in the car park so it just looked like a trucker is you know having a layover in a car park. Went into Shelley's, as it was you know, any normal Saturday Camera crew were in there like filming the bits in the Activate video where they're inside filming people dancing and all the rest. And then we left about 15 minutes before the end got all set up. So when people started coming out and there's a truck and you could hear the mc and people all started standing by the the truck. But there was more people in the car park than there was in the club because word had got out. Um, so there's people like standing on top of cars and stuff.
Speaker 2:Then we pulled the tarpaulin back up, started playing, like we did infiltrate, then we did activate, we did frequency. The police turned up, asked us to stop. So we did another version of activate. The police turned up like can you stop now, don't do anymore. I think we did one more and they said right, you know, if you carry on we're going to arrest someone. So we like called it a day, but there was a local reporter from from bbc stoke who turned up with the dat machine and a we didn't know he was there and he walked around recording the whole evening and doing little sound bites and stuff and then came over later on and interviewed the record label boss Some of the guys from Bizarre Inc were there, interviewed them, interviewed me and Chris and we pressed that up as like a one-sided 12-inch. But he's in this car park chatting away and says this is the moment they've all been waiting for. This is the sound of alternate. We heard it back, thought that's brilliant. So we got him to redo them and put them on evaporate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's legendary, that is. You know the rest is history.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it was a bit of a mad night, to be honest.
Speaker 1:Oh, I bet I bet for a lot of the the ravers coming out, coming out of there and seeing useloff play man, that would have blown my mind, yeah. But it's exactly like how, how you say, you know you come out of a rave and you just go straight to your car and and turn the music on and everybody, you know, starts dancing. But yeah, I can't imagine like coming out and seeing yous laugh. I'd have to, you know, knock my head a few times. So, um, how, how do you feel about like the resurgence of of like the hardcore music kind of coming coming back? I mean, I, I, uh, I saw a little documentary about like a over fifties raving in Scotland which you know it made my heart just like grow bigger and bigger because I'd love to see that.
Speaker 1:And you know when, when you still gig, you're still. You're still seeing, like you know, 40 to 50 year olds, you know even 60 year olds, that you gig and that's great to see, isn't it? You know, in in between, the, the youngsters, and I think sometimes, like I saw the Boomtown one, you did, and I love all your sets, but it was nice to see. You know, there was video of the crowd and you got the old ravers and the new ravers just raving together, and that's how it should be, you know, yeah, it should be. You know, yeah, and I think some sometimes, you know you've, we're, we're so like thrown music out, you know, into our ears, like every minute of the day. You know whether it's good or bad, but we're just it's, it's, you know, surrounded us but for for you, you know, to look up and just see, you know the ages, you're still doing it. After 40 years mark, I mean, you still pinch yourself, you, you I mean, do you, do you say that's your job, or do you just say this is what I do?
Speaker 2:because it is. It is a job. Uh, I mean, you know it's the thing that I get paid to do, but it's, it's something that I love doing. You know it's like I don't, I can't do anything else. I've been doing it that long. You know I didn't, apart from the painting and decoration which I I did for two years. This is what I've done ever since.
Speaker 2:You know it's a difference between doing like a job that pays and just about. You know you eat a living, you know, and you can get by, but you really enjoy doing it. You know you wouldn't want to do anything else. Or you do a job that you can't stand and you know you wouldn't want to do anything else. Or you do a job that you can't stand and you know you're away from your family and you're stressed out to the max and it's like you know you're weighed up.
Speaker 2:But doing the DJing, you know just seeing all those people dancing, you know, to tunes that are like 30 years old and you say to people, like when I first started doing like the, the old school revival thing, which is in the late 90s you'd get the people who wanted to relive it. You know who were there at the time, and maybe their younger brothers and sisters, who had missed out but collected the flyers and knew all the music and never experienced it. You've gone through so many generations that you've now got the people who were there at the time, their younger brothers and sisters, the brothers and sisters who are maybe like 10 years younger than them, who have been passed tapes down. You know, but never witnessed it. And you've got their kids, who've been brought up on. You know.
Speaker 2:I see like 17, 18-year-olds at the front who sing every single word to Shades of Rhythm and you're like, how on earth do you know all the words? And it's because their mom and dad brought them up on that music. Just like my dad was playing Barry White, you know. They've been playing SL2, you know. And to see all those people and to still be relevant, you know, to still play at festivals 30-odd years on, you know and play that music and it still go down as well as it used to. You know it's just mind blowing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's. You know it's just seeing the joy on their faces, like it's funny to hear. You know some of the old ravers, you know they'd love an armchair, you know, at these raves so they could sit sit down for a little while. But you know, I mean for me, like having four kids, you know I I love to go to bed about 9, 9, 30 at night. You know, if a good show comes, you know I'll go to it. You know, obviously I'm not as young as I used to be, so the dancing is bare minimum, you know. Know, maybe tapping the forehead, yeah, yeah, you know I can get down when I want to, but then the next three days I'm hurting for yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, the recovery takes a lot longer.
Speaker 1:But yeah, as you said, you know, it is great Again. You know I'm in these groups that you see their parents going. I'm taking my kid to his first rave yeah, that again just makes me smile. That's what this scene's all about is passing it on down Totally. And some of these kids, like you said, they know more than me, they know more than they'll throw. I have good chats when I'm out, you know, at a club or a rave, you know, and, and I think I'm going to, you know, ah, you know, I, I know, ah, I know that. Yeah, yeah, I know how they did the line.
Speaker 2:I know how they did the melody. Yeah, yeah, you little bastard. Yeah, but with the internet, you know it's, it's the biggest search engine in the world and you, you know if you're into it because I'm, I know, back in 88, when it all started, there was a lot of people who went there purely because it was the cool thing to do. You know, they weren't necessarily into acid house, they were just told oh, this is the latest thing. I went along.
Speaker 2:There's people there now who, just you know, are a festival where I'm supposed to go. There's also the people who are bang into it and all. They'll go on youtube and they'll go down a rabbit hole and look at like, like you said, edm is not fantastic, but it's an entry, and then they might be like going to that kind of stuff, listening to it, but then it's like related videos boom off, they go and they're discovering, you know, the real deal how do you feel about like social media, like, um, I know terry farley's been a big advocate of like, look when you're there, you're there, put your phones down.
Speaker 1:You know, maybe when you're there for the first minute, take a picture, take a video but put it in your pocket and you use this. Uh, you know how's your feeling on that Cause? For me, like you know, if I was DJing or playing live and all I saw was phones, that would just it kind of takes away the human side of things. What's your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:I mean, people still remember or you know, if they weren't too um, enhanced, they can remember. You know, things that we did 30 years ago. But I'm also aware that when people went to an acid house, too, they'd wear a smiley t-shirt and a bandana and shout acid at the top of their voice because that's what they thought you were supposed to do. Nowadays, people go to a gig and everyone's got this up, so everyone does it. It's like a phase. You know that's what people think you're supposed to do.
Speaker 2:I think it'll eventually come out of that and people will stop holding their phones up and it'll get back to people dancing and the few gigs that I've done where they don't allow people having that. They'll put a sticker on top of your, your camera or whatever, and you're not allowed to use your phone and people are there just there for dancing. There's none of the staring and I understand why people stand and watch you and stare. I understand why people film you. They want to capture that moment and they can show people and put it up on social media. But the energy is far better when there isn't any.
Speaker 1:Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2:If you imagine you're six rows back, all you're seeing is a sea of bones. You're not even seeing the act that you want to see. Yeah, you know, if everyone put them down, but it's just. I think it's just going to take time for this fad to go out yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm the same with you.
Speaker 1:I. I don't like it, you know, but it's, it's the young generation. Again, it's social media, you know. They seem like they have to video everything wherever they go. They've got a video. You know, you go to a restaurant, you gotta take a picture of what you're eating I don't quite understand that.
Speaker 1:You know you. You know you're in the supermarket. You gotta take a picture of that. You're crossing the street you gotta take a picture of that. You know it's again. I'm sounding like that old fart that you know sits on their uh outside telling people to get off their grass. Yeah, you know, again it's their time but we're still there. And I think you know all these people putting on these great like events bringing DJs like yourself, you know to their towns.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like a history lesson for me, but I like what you do as well. You don't just play. You know all the old school stuff you'll throw in. You know newer stuff which, which I think you know, is great for the crowd as well.
Speaker 1:Um, because every set we've we've always got to learn. You know music is always like, like for me. You've got to take me on like a journey. You know a dancing journey. You know there's some DJs very melodic can just bore you to death just because it's a plateau. You know you up and I'll bring you back down. I love the breaks. It's a plateau. It'll pick you up and bring you back down. I love the breaks. I always will, because not every break beat is the same, baselines are different Highs, lows, everywhere. So I mean, my hat's off to you for doing this for 40 years and you're still making people smile, and that's at the end of the day. Is what, what? What it's all about, thank you. So any. Uh, I know you've got um upcoming remixes right of some of your older tracks coming out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, evaporate, um remixes are coming out on the 1st of December. I mean one of the guys who's done the remix, pete Cannon. He's in like the school of like the new people doing hardcore and jungle, like Swankat and Denim Audio, all the Club Glow lot local group, but he set up a label purely to put out stuff that was made on an amiga which a lot of the producers around my time we it was either an atari or an amiga, you know, and he's he's using the same software, the same programs on an old amiga and making you know, like current up-to-date jungle. So he's done a remix of evaporateate and it's an absolute killer. But it's mad how the music's gone full circle and people are producing stuff on the same equipment.
Speaker 1:Well, again it's an ode to what you all started, which again I love. That's kind of saying these young lads really appreciate what you've done and what everyone did back then. It's a nice cap off to use that.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, as we tell the story of our love. Walk on through the rain, walk on through the rain. Oh, how we'll pray for the oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh you.
