The Liverpool Connection Podcast
The Life and Legacy of Liverpool Legend: Ray Houghton
Join us as we chat with former midfielder and Irish international Ray Houghton, and uncover his incredible journey through the ranks of West Ham and eventually Liverpool Football Club.
The Liverpool Connection is an LFC podcast that aims to bring the story of our wonderful club to as many fans as possible around the world. The history, the passion, the music, the people, the City – we want to share perspectives on and off the pitch. We're delighted to have you here with us, be sure to Like and Subscribe with Notifications on for our latest podcast.
🔊 Listen to The Liverpool Connection Podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or Google Podcasts: https://www.buzzsprout.com/785459
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#LiverpoolFC
#TheLiverpoolConnection
Aldrich at Mueller
The British Academy of Soccer
Central Texas
80s Casuals
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Join us as we chat with former midfielder and Irish international Ray Houghton, and uncover his incredible journey through the ranks of West Ham and eventually Liverpool Football Club.
The Liverpool Connection is an LFC podcast that aims to bring the story of our wonderful club to as many fans as possible around the world. The history, the passion, the music, the people, the City – we want to share perspectives on and off the pitch. We're delighted to have you here with us, be sure to Like and Subscribe with Notifications on for our latest podcast.
🔊 Listen to The Liverpool Connection Podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or Google Podcasts: https://www.buzzsprout.com/785459
📲 Follow The Liverpool Connection on Social Media:
💻 Website: https://www.atxreds.com
🐤 Twitter: https://twitter.com/atxredspodcast
📘 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/atxredspodcast/
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/atxredspodcast/
#LiverpoolFC
#TheLiverpoolConnection
Aldrich at Mueller
The British Academy of Soccer
Central Texas
80s Casuals
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of the Liverpool Connection podcast. This is the story podcast. I am your host, daza. If you haven't checked out the Jan Mulby episode, please do. That was our three-year anniversary episode and Jan was absolutely boss. But today we've got another fella who played in that era and saw this team many, many times at Anfield growing up. It's one of my favourite teams back then. It comes close to the clock-winning size, but still there was just so much flair in this team and I'm so privileged to get to chat with another player from that era, former midfielder and Irish international, ray Houghton. How are you, mate? I'm very well. Thanks, daza. Obviously Scottish born but Irish at heart, i would say.
Speaker 2:I was born in Glasgow. back in 1962. I moved to London just before my 11th birthday. My family decided that there was nothing for them in Scotland. We made the move as a group to older brothers, younger sister, mum and dad. The six of us came down and made our life in England. It was interesting and different. The size of London compared to Glasgow is ginormous. I opened it and that first came down to England just to see what it was like. I got into football straight away. I was a keen footballer in Glasgow and I got into a team locally where I was staying, which was in Camden Town. I eventually went and played for Ezzlington Boys, which is a district in London. I got into their side. I had the likes of Chrissy White, who played for Arsenal and Leeds. He was in my team, chrissy Ramsey, who represented Brighton in the final against Manchester United. We had a decent size for some good players.
Speaker 1:How was it early career? I know you had some set backs before playing for Oxford and then Liverpool. of course You had the Scottish coach, was it?
Speaker 2:the under-18s, that was Andy Roxborough. I was at West Ham. I was very fortunate When you played for Ezzlington Boys, as I did from 11 to 13,. Part of the deal was you trained at Arsenal on a Tuesday or Thursday night. One of the nights. The scholars the ones that Arsenal really liked they would train every Tuesday and Thursday. We were invited along to come and participate. They kept their eye on us to see what we were like.
Speaker 2:The problem with me was that when I was 11, i was four foot nothing. When I was 12, i was four foot nothing. When I was 13, i was four foot nothing. I didn't grow. That was a major problem. I had a picture back in the day when Chrissy White was in the team. Chrissy was six foot when he was 11 or 12. In the picture it looks like I'm kneeling down. I'm actually standing up. That's how small I was in comparison to him. I didn't get to stay at Arsenal. I moved away.
Speaker 2:A friend of mine called Dennis Phillips got picked up by a scout called Bruce McClelland, known as Mac. Mac couldn't believe how good Dennis was and wasn't at a football club Completely out of the blue. He just said to him is there anyone else like you. It was as simple as that. He said I've got a pal who I play with. I called Ray Houghton Mac came to the house, never seen me play, signed me up on school both times I went to West Dam training on a Tuesday night and within six months I signed on as a pro. That's how lucky you can be in football.
Speaker 1:It's crazy. Obviously it's a bit different now. Even with the lights of Jamie Vardy, he was playing one week in league league, two or three, and then all of a sudden you're pushing the Premier League For you, being that young and then getting the chance to play at a club like West Dam, and then all of a sudden that dream's shattered. That's what I'm union with a lot of the mental health issues too. With the kids of today, all of got on their mind is football, football, football. Then at 16, they let go by the club that they love and they're in obscurity. There's no backup for them.
Speaker 2:I do think it's slightly different today. I've seen over the last 20 years maybe a little bit longer and that is that you've got academies where kids go into when they're six, seven years of age. I've never really agreed with that. Personally, i think playing with your mates is much more important. When I grew up in Scotland, we had a big field We called it the back, so it was. In between all the tournament blocks There was just one big, massive pitch. It didn't matter if you were five or you were 65, you could play in the game. It ended up with 50, 60 aside. Let me tell you see, when I was five, i learned how to get out the way of the 25-year-olds who were determined to get the ball because they didn't care what age you were. They never come in and smash me in the challenge. You learn probably more playing in situations like that than you would have done playing at the academy, where it's all A passes to B, passes to C, passes to D. I can understand why, when your kids go through all that for a number of years and then all of a sudden that's taken away from them, how that can affect you. It is about your mental strength as well, because I'll give you an example.
Speaker 2:I had three years at West Ham. My first year was learning how to train because I'd never trained full time before. This was all new to me. I was nine stone wet through and all of a sudden I'm training Monday morning, monday afternoon, tuesday morning, tuesday afternoon, wednesday morning, thursday, friday and playing on the Saturday. I've got to do all the work that the youngsters have to do before training, after training. So I was leaving my house at 6.30 in the morning to get in and I wasn't getting on the 7.30 in that night. I was just good at nothing left. So when I was second year I got a bit better. In my third year, which turned out to be my last year at West Ham, i scored 19 goals from midfield 19. I got a free transfer. Today I would probably get a six year contract under £150,000 a week. That's the difference. That's another thing that's changed. The big clubs have got more money to farm out on certain players and give them huge wages and keep certain people on.
Speaker 2:It's difficult for the youngsters that have been there from the age of six or seven to get to 16 and then they make a 17, 18 and they make a big call whether they're going to give you a pro contract or not, then your dreams are shattered at that moment. That's what happened to me at West Ham. My dreams were shattered. I was like what's? the only good thing was because I had such a good season, i had confidence in myself.
Speaker 2:And then your phone starts to ring and people start sending you letters and they hear that you're available on a free transfer. And then you go, start talking to clubs and that makes it a little bit easier. But the ones that don't get them phone calls or don't get them letters, or their agent's not taking any calls from anyone. I would hate to know what they've got to go through. I know the percentage is extremely high. The youngsters don't make it and there seems to be nowhere for them to go. Some of them might not have done as well as they could have done at school because all their dreams and ambitions are on being a footballer. If I ever do a talk to schools, i always say the really talented players get an education first. You always need something to back up for you in your life and getting a good education is certainly one of the things that I would advise them to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i think one of the biggest issues as well is parents, especially over here in America as well. You go watch these young kids and the parents on the sideline are just going absolutely like apeshit.
Speaker 2:They're living their dream through their kids.
Speaker 1:They might not be good enough to have done it.
Speaker 2:They might have wanted to have done it but they couldn't have done it. But now they're living their dream through their kids and they're pushing their kids And actually in many aspects I would suggest that they're turning their kids away from it. The kids are like really, this is what it's about. I'm going to get social media pressure we all see that But you don't want it from your own parents when you go in there picking you apart what you've done that day and what you didn't do and what you could have done better. You don't want to go through that. You want to leave that to your coach. He's in your manager. They'll give you the best advice. Your parents are there as a support group to help you when things are going tough and get you through that, but it's not for them to keep telling me where you've gone on the pitch. I don't think that helps.
Speaker 1:Well, they want their child to be the next Ronaldo or Messi, and that's once in a lifetime, isn't it? These kids grow up to be Messi and Ronaldo, so, yeah, it's just hard to watch. How are your parents very supportive?
Speaker 2:Well, my mum died when I was 16. So she never got to see me play professionally. So that's obviously one of my big regrets in life that the support that she gave me up to that point. She always used to say believe in yourself, you're more than good enough. And then for her not to see me actually make it sign that pro contract.
Speaker 2:My dad was there. Yeah, my dad, all my family have played football. My two older brothers had trials at Derby, one had trials at Chelsea and one or two other places. My dad could have been a professional, but my mum was more important to him at that particular time And he didn't go and realise his dream, if you like. But he was a very good footballer. So he's been in the family for a while, but I was the one that was lucky enough to get the pro contracts. But, yeah, my dad was always there. He had a support in Real Madrid. As kids He used to watch the top team back in the day and used to tell his story You like George Best and one or two others, but he's a real connoisseur of the game. So Real Madrid was you've got to watch these and the kit that they wear and the way that they play. This is the way football should be played. So very much we grew up like that and then watching Celtic play as well.
Speaker 1:So from West Ham. you think your dreams are shattered, but obviously the phone rings, which is always good And I find it very back then. there wasn't nearly like agents too many agents. It was you meet the new club and you shake hands and you go about your business. There's not like 10% for you over there, 15%. So how was it for your next four day into your next club Was?
Speaker 2:that I never had an agent, never had agents through my whole career. Wow, i didn't really see the need for an agent. No, in hindsight I know you said, but I think there's times when agents take the pressure off you a little bit So you're not going in there and butt in heads with the manager all the time about what contract you should be getting or one thing or another, because all it leads to is follow And I'll tell that a little bit later about Graham Suenis when I was at Liverpool and the reasons why I left Because I didn't have an agent. If an agent was doing the deal, there would have been a lot cleaning a lot, probably a lot easier. When you're doing it individually it can be a little bit more stressful.
Speaker 2:But I went to Fulham and it was mainly through Terry Mancini I mean Terry's ex-Arsenal player QPR and other clubs. Terry was the reserve team manager at Fulham And we played in the combination, which is the reserve league in the Southern part of the country. You know you would have the other one up there. We'd Liverpool, man United and all that played in. We had the one down south, if you like, and we'd played against Fulham a couple of times And I'd done well, particularly in that last season where I scored 19 goals.
Speaker 2:So when Terry found out I was, there used to be a pink form that used to go around. You used to sign it and put in your details. Then that would be sent off to the PFA and then the PFA would send it to all the clubs to show you who the people that were getting transferred or are up for transfer. So he'd seen my name and quite couldn't believe it And had rung up West Ham and tried to find out a bit more about me and what I was liking. He was asking the questions along the line like does he drink a lot? And he went no, i don't think he drinks And he's a bad trainer. He's bad in the drink. No. A few other questions that they asked and he kept going no. But then he's finding answers. Why the hell are you getting rid of him? He's been your best player this season And that was the way it went. So that gave me confidence And that gave me a better belief And I went into Fulham, spoke to Malcolm McDonald, who was the manager.
Speaker 2:Malcolm was really good on the 1-1 situations. He wasn't a great coach and he kept me putting on sections, but actually talking to you and talking about football. He was very, very good. So I got on well with Malcolm And he sold to the club to me very well because the season before they just got promoted from the third to the second, which would be the league one for the championship today. So Fulham were currently in the championship when I went there And we had a great side with some very talented players and a good manager And it worked out really well for me My first season. He couldn't have went any better. You know it was as good as I could have expected from him.
Speaker 1:Well, i had Chris Kirkland on a couple of months ago And he was just talking about his agent. He didn't know even how much Liverpool paid for him. He didn't know how much he was getting. He was like I just left it to the agents. I just showed up to work. I was like, wow, that's taken some pressure off.
Speaker 2:Personally, i think I'd like to know what was said and what was going on as well, i think. Just to take yourself a couple, i know that I've heard stories of players today that their agent pays their electricity bill, their gas bill, the rake's bill, and players have got no control over them. Well, that would never have been me. I don't want someone else taking control of my bank balance. That's my decision What I want to do if not someone else's. So I think players were a little bit. They wanted people to take control of their lives rather than taking control of themselves, and that even came down. I hate you that they used to take your passport off. When you come back from your holidays, they give you a passport and you get to go and ask for it when you were going to play in the national football. I never liked that. I used to think that was a nonsense. Don't you think you can trust me with my own passport? Do you think I'm that daft that I'm going to Whatever? Just to me it was ludicrous. It was silly stuff.
Speaker 1:Well playing for Oxford. Obviously Kenny had seen you And I like what he wrote in his little diary about you. You raise a very good player, consistent. And then all of a sudden I mean, did you Were you an admirer of Liverpool back then?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, Oh yeah. I mean I was fed up going to Liverpool and getting beaten. I went to Oxford three times And we lost 6-0, 4-0 and 2-0. So at least we were going in the right direction. We were keeping the score lined down, but we were getting very used to taking, you know, kick-offs with the amount of times we were conceding goals.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i was a huge admirer of Liverpool At Fulham. We actually played against them in the league cup. We drew, i think it was 1-1 at Craving Cottage. The second leg we went up to Anfield and we drew 1-1 again And they went to a replay at Craving Cottage and we lost 1-0. Graham Sooners scored the only goal of the game But we actually played really well, probably with a better side in the 1-0 defeat. And Bob Paisley afterwards actually said Fulham are the best footballers he's seen outside of the top division. So you know that was one of the things that I liked about Liverpool. It wasn't just about them. They were very good at passing on congratulations and well done to others when they deserved it And you know that always stuck with me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, i mean especially Anfield as well. You know, when we see an opposition player who's absolutely, you know, bossed the park, they'll get a standard ovation, you know. Maybe not as much as back in the day, you know, but they'll still get the you know adulation from Liverpool faithful.
Speaker 2:I mean, if you go back to 18-ing, when we lost to Arsenal you know they would be lost to Liverpool.
Speaker 2:I know, but yeah, with the amount of Liverpool fans that were applauded in Arsenal when they went round with the trophy, it was incredible. You know a lot of clubs, you know the stadium would have been empty, apart from the away fans celebrating their triumph. But Liverpool fans understood the job that they'd done, you know, and gave them the you know, the credence for doing it. You know, and said well done, you know. And that's the way Liverpool are. You know, there's an expectation, there's always an expectation, and I played there.
Speaker 2:It was an incredible place, the only place I've ever been where. You know, it wasn't a case of and it wasn't arrogance, it wasn't. If you were going to win, it was how many you were going to win by, and it wasn't arrogant, it was just so good to work. You know I never had that feeling anywhere else. You know, i played 20 years, five years at Liverpool. The other 15 years I didn't have it. I only had it when I was at Liverpool and that came down to just the way they were, you know, the fans and the club itself.
Speaker 1:So Liverpool come calling, you know, did you get because I know Kenny likes to be, you know, in front of the transfers and stuff and likes to actually, you know, call Did you get a call from Kenny?
Speaker 2:Yeah, i can say that now. I couldn't say it at the time. Yeah, but I actually went and spoke to. I spoke to George Graham, who was Arsenal manager at the time. I went to see him at a hotel at Heathrow airport and then we was in the meeting for about an hour with him and for about 15 minutes he spoke about Liverpool and how good they were and how he wants to play like them and how he wants to bring in the right type of players to play the Liverpool way. And I came out thinking, geez, oh, he's just enhanced my thoughts about Liverpool and how good they are. Leeds United came in, rangers came in, Glasgow Rangers came in.
Speaker 2:For me, being a Celtic fan and a Catholic, that wasn't going very well and after about the 10th hate mail that I got we an empty bullet cartridge into it saying if you come up here, this is what you're going to get. I thought probably not the right place for me Into my land was another one and the one I should have went and spoke to and I didn't because when Keaney came in and I spoke to him, i was ready. Was Brian Cloughett not in the forest? Not that I went, he's not in the forest, but I think just to go and speak to Brian, where I've been an experience in itself and it's something that you know. Later on I regretted not going just to talk to him and just to see what he was about. But once Liverpool were in, for me it was an easy task. And when I went up, i mean it wouldn't happen today how it came about, in the sense that I was playing for Oxford against West Ham on the Saturday and straight after the game my wife and I were driving up to Southport to go to the hotel to meet Peter Robinson, the chairman, and Keaney. So during the course of the game I am jumping out of every tackle. I am not going to get injured, you know.
Speaker 2:So after the game, we lost the game I think it was 1-0, where it was and Liam Brady was playing for West Ham at the time and he was in the players lounge and he said to me what was wrong with you today? And I said well, i'm going to be Liverpool to talk to Keaney Douglas, you know, my Mrs's company picked me up and he said oh, no wonder you were jumping out of the way, all the challenges and all that. He said it wouldn't happen today. You know that just wouldn't go on. You know you were being taken out of the situation making sure you're 100% right, and went up to the club that you were going to sign for. It was an extraordinary meeting, where you know it didn't last very long, you know, because I'm up there on my own. It was just a green terms that lasted about five minutes and then I had to go and have a medical the next day. Now players will tell you when you're going to have your medical.
Speaker 2:You're always fearful, you're always worried, and it's simply because you never know what's going to go wrong. You know you might be an injury in there that you didn't know about. You know, and you're thinking, oh, what happens if? what happens if, and a lot. You know 99.9% of the time you're just. You know you're wasteful thinking. You know it's just that you're imagining things there. It's not.
Speaker 2:But I had my medical, a doctor's surgery, and it was Doc Reid who was the doctor at the time at Liverpool and he was an Irish doctor and I went up and he sat me on a couch and he moved my right knee about and he went yeah, that looks all right. Thumb or left knee, not too bad. Thumb or right ankle, my left ankle. I gave a urine sample and this was the final thing that he asked me to do. He said I want you to put your finger out here like this and touch your nose. And I went like that and he went that's it, you've passed. That was my medical at Liverpool. That was it. That was it. I signed that day and I got on.
Speaker 2:My wife was up with me and we stayed over. She had to make her own way back home and she had to go and pick up the kids, because you leave the kids with her mum and dad. Because the two of us went up there. And then I went up with Kenny in his car up to Dundee because we were playing in a testimonial game and he wanted me to go and meet the lads. I had no gear with me. I didn't have a boots, i didn't have any trainers, i didn't have tracksuit. All I had was the clothes and a little bit of stuff. I was going to drive back in the following morning and nothing else. And he went no, no, i want you to come up with me. And that was it. I was off and running.
Speaker 1:It's a good job. You could touch your nose.
Speaker 2:Who knows, i'm looking at your nose I might not have signed.
Speaker 1:If you would have missed, that's it.
Speaker 2:You could have never pulled shots.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my career will have started Well. I mean, it must have just been great to just be driving up to Dundee with King Kenny, you know. I mean that's any Liverpool fans dream is to have five minutes with Kenny and you get to have time with Kenny. I mean, it's hard to say no to the man, isn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 2:I mean, i was a Northern because I was a Celtic fan, so I watched him playing for the Celtic and then, you know, watching him play for Liverpool and I remember being the hybrid. Once again, when I was, you know, when I was an awesome as a kid, i went to watch Liverpool play and I seen Kenny score goals there and you know Liverpool play well, really well, and you just admire the football that they played. So to be in his company and then for him, you know, to be talking football and where he's seen your game and how you could fit in, you know, to the club, was just extraordinary. You know it's, it's. You know, sometimes you've got your pinch yourself. You think. Is this really up? I mean, this was a little lad that was too small, 11 and 12. This was the lad that West Arm had rejected And all of a sudden, now you're, you're fought your way And that comes about to the talk.
Speaker 2:You were talking about mental health issues. You know you didn't have anyone around to help you. Then You know there was no, no, no psychologists at clubs. There was no one there to help you through things. There was no one to talk to. You know you might talk to your teammates, but that's about it And they're not philosophy. They don't really have an understanding about it. They give you the best advice as they can, but you just and yourself, you know you need good people around you. You need your good family members to help you as well at that particular stage. And that's why I had and, you know, that's why I coped with it Because Liverpool started that season unbelievably well. You know, as I say, we'd gone up there. We often lost 2-0. And we were fortunate just to lose by 2. So I knew how good they were and how well they were playing, and to get the chance to come and fit in and be part of that was exciting.
Speaker 1:Well you're, you're brought in, you know, not just by yourself but John Aldridge, barnsey and Badesley, which you know back then was one of the best attacking lines you know in world football. You're first day training and then you know you're looking at some of the greats of Liverpool football club. Did you just go in head on or did you have the knocking knees? you know syndrome. Did you just like Jesus Christ? This is the best of the best.
Speaker 2:Well, i'd known some of them, obviously from playing against them and playing with them. You know, for the Republic of Ireland, so I've made my international debut. So they like to say Matt Lawrence and Ronnie Wheeling and others who played for Ireland were there. So when I went in, you know, i sort of knew them. They were part of, they were talking with the other lads, so you felt quite comfortable quite quickly.
Speaker 2:One of the things I did realise, though, was how little they trained. You know, every particularly West Ham I mean, in West Ham you should train till you were sick. You know it was the hardest training I've ever had. West Ham And I go to Liverpool they were the best club, and the training is like I'm like is this, it? Surely you do something else.
Speaker 2:I just could believe how little they did, and that was hard to get used to. You know, you're only thinking my God, this is incredible. This is all that they do, the goalkeepers. They're not doing any. You know, like catching practice, we don't do any defending, we don't do any shape. You know we're not practicing corners. It's just like I'm just like this is incredible. But one thing that stood out straight away is you know, you realise that what you could do on the ball. Everyone else could do that And most of them could do it better. And that didn't happen at your other clubs. You know, you were probably one of the standouts, so when things were in training they give you the ball. In matches they give you the ball because they wanted you to do something, whereas at Liverpool you were looking around and everyone could do it And you were like, oh right. So you realise quite quickly that you weren't going to get as much as the ball that you once did at the other clubs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, even our defenders could dribble.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they were all talented lads, they were all like on the ball. We were brilliant. You know, never panicked, nothing was. You know, they were never phased. You know you didn't think, oh, you know they're under a lot of pressure here. It was like under such control all the time. But I tell you what I mean. There was times when they got a little bit feisty in training. You know that was the thing. The one thing it did stand out, you know everyone thought, oh, they're a passing team And you know they've got. I tell you what they could handle themselves. You know, that was one of the things that certainly stood out for me is that they were real competitors when it came to it.
Speaker 1:Well, i heard there was no warm-ups either. You just you know if you're on the bench, you just go straight on the pitch.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even like before. Again, there were one of these clubs that were very superstitious. You know, i never got that. I never had to spend superstitious things, you know, like I had to go second or third or anything like that. But I'll give you an example. So my first game was looking town away on the plastic pitch and we won 1-0. Gary Gillespie scored the only goal of the game. And then I was the next game at home, on the Saturday I think it was.
Speaker 2:We went to the remote house in the city centre. So there was a big room where you go and eat and there was a big table laid out. So I knew, boy, i didn't know where to sit. So the lads, as they did, got me sitting in a chair And I knew there was something wrong. You know, i'm not bad at sussing things out quickly And I can hear and see the lads are giggling and they're chatting away each other And I'm thinking, oh, what is it? So the automatic thing was I'd spilled some of my pre-match meal down my shirt and tie and it was on there and they were giggling at that. So I had a quick little shifty down. He saved anything from his head, nothing. That's all fine, but still I knew there was something wrong.
Speaker 2:And then the door opens at the back and in walks Kenny Douglas, the manager, straight over to the table and these first words were you're sitting in my chair And I'm thinking, oh God, the lads are setting me up. So I'm thinking, what am I going to do? And they're gone, you'll move, you'll move. Yeah, no chance he's going to move. That was Ronnie Moran and then Roy Evans about saying that make the players, you'll move, you'll move. So I'm thinking, what the hell do I do? So I said, after much, much thought about it, i said I'm going to sit here. And his words were are you sure? And I went. Yeah, i went, okay. Then. Then he went and sat somewhere else. So I felt 10 foot tall there. I told the manager the players are all pat me on the back. Well done.
Speaker 2:We got up to the up to the ground and Kenny always named his team about 10 to two o'clock And he went through the team blah, blah, blah. Sub, you points at me, don't you ever sit in my chair again? And that was the way it was. I was always sub anyway, it was just to. He was just going to make that point. And then I got back into the team after being. I came on as a sub against Wimbledon and we drew one one. I scored my first goal for the club And then, from then on, my first league goal, because I actually scored in that testimonial game up at Dundee. So my first actual goal of consequence was in that match. So against Wimbledon we drew one one.
Speaker 1:Well, you took the iconic number nine. you know which was made I didn't take it.
Speaker 2:It was the only one that was. It was the only one that was around.
Speaker 1:Oh, are I There we go then. Yeah, i thought you were like I'll have that, i've got. No, no, no, i mean that's, even though you know, rushes the forwards in your midfield, i mean that's still, you know, one of the most iconic numbers.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, well, I mean the only reason why older didn't want it because all don't want to date Because his hero was Roger Hunt. He wanted the enemy late hunting, you know, and where that number eight I mean he was. You know people used to say about John taking nine, and John was, like John's, a Liverpool fan. You know Liverpool's in his blood and Roger Hunt is just a man. That's all they ever talked about. You know, when you're oxen, or that Roger Hunt, roger Hunt, roger Hunt, roger Hunt. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:So whatever Roger done, you know John wanted to try and emulate that as best he could, you know. So wearing his shirt was always going to be, you know, the priority for him. And Peter took seven, barnes, he's got 10, stephen Mann's got 11. And the rest of them, you know Jocky's going to have, as Gary Gillespie was to. Stevie Nickel was the number that he was. So there's nothing else available. So you know all you wanted was one of the one, 11. That's what you wanted. You wanted one of the shirts that gets you in the team And you know that was usually important. But I never worried about the nine shirt because no one was going to ever compare me to Russia. You know Russia was a no, no gold score on the Azmi's and Medfield So I never worried about that, never came in my mind at all, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, numbers are numbers really. You know it's even crazy today. You know you have like cent, like you know, 66. You're just like where, where, where these numbers come from. You know, in a day it's one to 11. And that's it.
Speaker 2:I must admit, though I didn't. I didn't like wearing for adophobia before. That was the only thing that whenever I played at West Ham, i wore the number four. All the other nightmare and absolute nightmare. So I would say to the manager I don't care, you can put me two, three, five, six or everyone. Don't put me four, because I'm, i'm just, it's in my head, i'm going to have a nightmare. So every club I went to, i never wore the number four. After West Ham, so that was fortunate enough for that. That was the only number, the only number I ever wore.
Speaker 1:I want to talk about your, your goal. I mean so many Liverpool players play derbies and never get, you know, never scored against the, against the enemy, and your first Derby and FA Cup at Goddison and you get to score the winner. I mean you go down in Liverpool folklore like even if you never played another game in your life or Liverpool. That goes down in folklore for me. You know, anytime you score against Everton you're going to get a picture framed How I mean that must have felt absolutely amazing for you, i mean for the team, if you ever see if you ever see the.
Speaker 2:You know the footage you're about and you look at me. It's pure surprise, pure surprise. I've scored with a header, you know, because I wasn't renowned for my head And I've got to be. But frankly, honestly, it was an awful game of football. I mean you can imagine Liverpool ever in games, a lot of them, you know. You didn't see the ball for the first 15 minutes because you were kicking each other. I mean it was, it was one of the toughest games you ever played in. I mean it was pure rivalry hatred at times, you know, and it was like brother on brother, you know, brother on sister, whatever it is, you know I mean there will be families torn. You know, from the build up to this game. And you could, you could sense that, you could feel it in the build up that week, you know, if you walked around the town not ever with any time, because you know if you've seen the blue fans in there, you get stick from them. I'm sure it was the same with the blues players from the Liverpool fans. You know it was. It was, the rivalry was palpable. You could touch it. But so to play in that game and then scored a goal. It was exhilarating. You know it was like you come off afterwards. You know what it means to the red part of the city. You know it's ever for his bragging rights. You know it's. You're through, you've got. You've got the result they have not.
Speaker 2:So it was, it was absolutely huge And you know I'll look back with such fondness and such memories as well. You know, but, behalf of me, pick out just one that live about five years there. You know, first, second, first, second, six. That was my record in the league. You know it was incredible. You know it was a save, was just a phenomenal place to be, phenomenal players.
Speaker 2:You know coaches that you run around in Roy Evans, they didn't. You know they weren't pontificators, they were screwed. You know they. You should know this, you should know that son, you should know this And that's why we do that. And they just give you little nuggets, just little nuggets of advice and every like you know something that switchy was flick on you go. I never thought of that. Yeah, i've got it now. And they were so knowledgeable. But the you know just the love they had for the club was was incredible, you know, and that came through. You know when you were playing and when you were training and everything was about remember. I can remember. Now you think back, you know 92,. I left, so it's what 31 years. Remember who you are and who you represent. That was always what Ronnie would say here. Remember who you are and who you represent.
Speaker 1:Now, Barnes is the one that passed the ball, wasn't it? He crossed it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a little bit of movement from a throw and down the left hand side. Paul Power was in the middle and there was a ball that came in. I just came in behind. It was a great ball from Barnes, it was absolutely superb. I went pinpoint accurate and I came in and I just headed it down. I mean, it went beyond Neville into the goal, so I was off and running. Of course, it was a surprise shock I don't know what word to use while I was feeling at that moment, but it certainly joined with something that came afterwards, when the final whistle goes and you've won the game and you've scored the winning goal. Yeah, the red half of the city absolutely loves you and the blue half hates you.
Speaker 1:Which is alright, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's how it is. I've got a couple of cousins that are Evertonians and I'm wishing them all the best for this season. But for a greater team, yeah, they haven't piped up in quite a number of years, but for me, when I was six, keegan was my hero, even though he was only at Liverpool for another year. And then it was Barnes, because early on, you know, i just I just watched Liverpool and was in awe of all the players. But then, when Barnes, he came into Liverpool, i was like I'd never seen anybody do that with a football dribble way he does. So I mean for you, playing on the right flank and then playing on the left, i mean being able to, you know, watch at times. What that man could do with a football is amazing. But also, you know, you know you'll often see yourself like how am I, you know, head in a ball and you know, instead of the forwards is crack, yeah, but I mean your job.
Speaker 2:You know. If you were there, you know it was the same with John on the left. If I was going down the right hand side and crossing, his job was to get in the box. You know you see a lot of modern players today that they watch the game and then they go. Oh, and then you'll hear the. You know the co-commentator. So now you've seen Joey there. He should have been coming into the back post. It's just they don't realise or they don't work on it. You know they're not thinking it through where they should be, but that was the case with us.
Speaker 2:And you know, playing with John, i played against him for Watford, you know. And you know we were against for Oxford and we fool him. I played against him and he always was a good player. But when I seen him at Liverpool he just looked like he'd gone on to another level. I knew he had that ability.
Speaker 2:But to go to a club like Liverpool, who were renowned for passing and moving, and then to have someone who was a little bit different And Peter was a bit different I admire Peter because Peter would try things that the others wouldn't And a lot of times he would give the ball away. And you know the lads would be getting on, they'd have to keep the bloody ball and you know, just stop giving away. But I admired him for it because he knew in his mind that was the right ball to be playing And he was going to try it. And then, after the third attempt, you know the ball would go through and you'd score. And then everyone would go really ball, peter, really ball. The other two occasions, though ready to rip his head off and give him the ball away. But that third time, because he knew it was the right thing to do, it would work, and I thought him and John really worked in tandem as a pair.
Speaker 2:That obviously came through the England and certainly we Liverpool. But you know, for three years the first three years at Liverpool Barnes he was virtually unplayable in my opinion. He just had everything. He was quick over the ground, he could go off either foot, left or right, but Dominique liked his left. But he was good on his right foot as well. Great cross of the ball, scored goals, assisted goals. There was no real flaw in his game And I think it took maybe a couple of games for the Liverpool public to get to grips with what he could do. But once they seen him they were like I think it was the QPR game When he scored that goal. And then it was just like wow, feller is just different class. He's doing things that virtually no one in football were doing at that particular time. He was just a revelation.
Speaker 1:So you won two league titles and two FA Cups, but obviously you could have won one more. You lost the win building in the final. And then Arsenal, you know, last game of the season, bit of heartbreak. How does it? you know, because you compare it to the like last season. For me, you know, liverpool were on the verge of like winning everything And, you know, lost the league by a point and lost to Real Madrid. How does a player like get himself you know, not just physically but it's mentally get ready for the next season? you know, after being so close to especially winning.
Speaker 2:I think that's a job of the coaching staff as well. Like running around was brilliant. I mean, you can imagine. You know, as I said, i've come through West arm, i've been at Fulham, i've been at Oxford. I was fortunate enough to win the League Cup at Oxford. So I've won a trophy and I've got a medal. But when I went to Liverpool and we win the league that year my first year 87, 88, you know, at the end of the season I was the start of the fall of the season There was a brown box that was on one of the couches in the home changing room and then was your medals and running around and go to the box and go round.
Speaker 2:We're all sitting in there waiting to go training. And he would ask you, did you play in 12 games this season? Yes, ronnie, you know you throw your medal, the little blue box you're meddling it, throw it to you. No, i didn't play with Ronnie. I'll bet I'll up next season. Son, you and he just be throwing the medals around. And that's how I got my medal and his words after after you received your medal, go home, put it in your cupboard, because it's meaningless now to start the season to come.
Speaker 2:That was Liverpool's mantra. Didn't matter, we've done last season. What are you going to do for us this season? What are you going to change this season? Forget what happened last season. You can't. You can't affect that. What can you affect this season? That was the way I thought they were brilliant. There's the psychologist, they're the psychologist, the coaching staff. They knew you, they knew you made your tick. They knew, they knew the right buzzwords to use. You know to get you right for for matches and for the season ahead. You're brilliant. He's only when you look back and you reflect, you realize geez, oh, how clever were these boys, without you actually knowing it at the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i think that's the thing, isn't it? Like you, you're probably with Ronnie and you know Evans, probably in one ear, out the other, you know, but then you do remember these things and you're like Jesus Christ, i wish I would have really paid attention, you know, because these men know what they're talking about. Yeah, it's just, we've seen so many amazing managers with with Shankly and Paisley, but you know Ronnie, ray Evans as well just, they're very worldly and what they believe in, and I think they're not just great managers, they're absolutely, you know, great people as well, and I think I agree with that 100%.
Speaker 2:I mean, i should say me you're going to the first manager, probably since Kenny, in my opinion, really understood what the Liverpool public were about and where they were coming from. I think a lot of the other managers came in. We really really good ideas and, you know, really wanted to be successful and wanted the club to be successful, but they didn't realize the importance of the fans as much as Jürgen did. Jürgen bought into them and he bought into the players and then it just became this like this bond, this unit between supporters and players and they were all pulling in the one direction, so that I think was usually important for him to do that. That's what Kenny did, that's what Bob did, joe Fagan and Bill did. They all bought into the Liverpool public and they told them how important they could be for this club. Because at the end of it I would say you know, i would never go and do a dinner or speak to people. I would say the same thing. I had the privilege of playing for Liverpool. Everyone plays for Liverpool. I've had the privilege and it will always be part of us and it will always be part of our DNA and part of your future life.
Speaker 2:But the fans are the custodians of the club. It's from you, know you're very insatiable. You know you virtually. This club is in your blood. You love it every day of your life. Players will come and go. You know players will yeah, i had a great time there, and you know, but it won't. It might not be the most important thing to them And fans somehow sometimes don't understand that It's a job, because the fans are like no, this is my life. You know, i met someone a few months ago and not missed the game for Liverpool for 28 years, or whatever the number was. Never missed the game over a pre-season as well. It's his life. You know that's what it means to the fans. You look there, the custodians of the club, the holders of the club the other ones are the glue that keeps it all together. The players are the ones that have got the privilege, the managers have got the privilege of managing the club. We had the privilege of playing for the club. It's the fans are the ones that love and breathe it every day.
Speaker 1:So what was the difference after Kenny left? How was the managerial difference between him and Graham?
Speaker 2:I found it tough with Graham. I found him quite arrogant. Personally, great player, but it was just something that wasn't quite right. I don't know if you can get that. You know I had Andy Roxburgh. Andy Roxburgh, you said you managed the under 18s with Scotland.
Speaker 2:I don't know if he just took a dislike to me, john Lyle, when I was at West Ham. I've never done anything wrong, but John Lyle seemed to have him. He couldn't see past things that I used to do. You know, i don't know where it was. I just couldn't please him. You know it didn't matter what I'd done, it was never good enough.
Speaker 2:And with Graham, you know Graham was trying to change it around when it came to the training. You know, and I don't blame him for that, he was trying to make things better. He was trying to make the food better. So there's a lot of things that he was trying to implement which was probably right at the time. But you're only as good as the players that you bring in. Your recruitment is huge at a football club And his recruitment at the start wasn't very good. You know, you're bringing them, you're letting players go and you're bringing them players. And I look back at, you know, our team in 91, 92, my final season And if you go through you know the sort of side we had and what he was trying to do. It was very difficult. And then afterwards, you know, he brought in a lot of players that weren't quite ready or mentally weren't ready for what Liverpool are about. You know that can happen. You know. And the other thing was he looked Alan Anson-Gone was a huge loss. Alan was the, he was a mentor, he was the main man there. You know, he was the one that would wind you up for a few weeks just to see if you could take it, and then, once he'd taken you so far and then he'd let you you know, come away from me and let you get on there. So he was the one when we lost Alan. I think that was a huge loss.
Speaker 2:Graham, we ended up with Graham and I were. He went along the lines I went in to see him about, because I never done agent went to see him about my contract. I wanted X. He was only willing to give me a very limited rise And that was due to when I questioned on it and his words were I never signed you And I thought, well, what's that got to do with it, either you know, worth the money or not.
Speaker 2:And he wouldn't. You know, he wouldn't say and he'd just come to your head, he was playing a game. I didn't think, even though he kept saying to me you've been my best player since I've been here. This is him saying this to me You've been my best player. And I'm saying well, why aren't you paying me accordingly? Then I've been your best player. Well, i'm the one that's won one of the lowest amount in your first team.
Speaker 2:And anyway, that came ahead in the. I'll just say, look, you don't really. It just sounds like you don't want me, i'll just go somewhere else. And that's how it came about, really. You know he came out and said he's made mistakes and along the way, but most managers do I think he just came out a bit early, you know, coming from Glasgow Rangers where he had success, but you know it's not hard to get success And it's a two horse racer, as it was to come into Liverpool and try to change it as dramatically as he wanted to. He was a little bit too quick. I think if you were to slow down a little bit you might have got more out of it.
Speaker 1:Well, you scored 12 goals, didn't you? Your last season as well, you had one of your best seasons And then to kind of, you know, be, let go. You know that's another like knife in your side, especially playing for a team like Liverpool. You know, you're just like, where do you go? You know you're at the top the mantle, so to speak, but you know, you carried on. Now I do want to ask you, while playing for Liverpool, who was your toughest opponent, not team-wise, but player-wise?
Speaker 2:I used to like playing against Stuart Pierce. Stuart was physical, strong, really good player but he was fair. You know there was a lot of players. You know it's not like today. You know tackling back then. You know you go watch YouTube and see what tackling was like back then. You know it was ferocious, it was fearsome. You know you were a little bit afraid that if you went in for a challenge, you know you might get your leg broken. You know that's genuinely how it was.
Speaker 2:I never felt that with Stuart. I always felt if you went to compete for the ball you'd always go for the ball. You know, and I liked that in a player. You know, going to try and break someone's leg isn't showing you how tough you are, it's just you know you want to go and hurt someone, but going in there and wanting to win the ball 50-50, that shows you how tough you were and that's what I thought was Stuart.
Speaker 2:When I played against him. I had some good battles against him. Fortunately, he came out on top quite a few times school-wise. But yeah, i always felt him as a strong player. Obviously, internationally it's different because you're playing against the likes of Paolo Maldini and others like that And another caliber of player. You know when you're playing against the Italians. There's so a deck to defend and any little bit of space you get is always usually important. So you know, to play for Ireland in 94 and beating 1-0 at the giant stadium and scored the only goal of the game was something special as well, because they were playing that day but Eze was out there, amongst others.
Speaker 1:Now, as you know, I can't believe. the team that I supported, you know, has given me many great moments, but never one of your European Cup during your time. is that one of your? you know We?
Speaker 2:were banned, weren't we? We were banned from Highstone, weren't we? So I think if we had been playing in 87, 88, 89, there's no doubt we were a game. Ac Milaner run for the money, but they were the top side of the time when they had like a quality players. But I think that's a regret and you can't. There was nothing we can do about it. You know that was as it was back in the day. You know we couldn't play football at that stage and it wasn't until a little bit later that we went into the UEFA Cup And that didn't quite work out for us, because when you've been out in Europe for a little while, it takes a little while to get back into it.
Speaker 2:You know you get used to that home-in-the-way scenario and you know a lot of the lads hadn't played in it before. There was a lot of youngsters coming from England but Mike Marsh playing them one of the games that we were involved in, amongst others a lot of young kids coming through and getting a chance in that competition. But yeah, our lofty of scene is in our pomp. 87, 88, 89, playing against the best in Europe, because I think we were being worn a match for anyone. Yet He's, he can't have regrets. You know, that's what tracks that you youngsters today when they're playing. You know, and I spoke to the I went and done the dinner in Oxford for the other week and the first team and the ladies' teams there and I tried to explain to him look, every day you go into training, every chance you get to play a game, give it everything you've got, because I tell you, your career will soon be over with and the only thing you're left with is memories All you've got. You know, people see me about. You just mentioned your league winners medal two league two FA Cup, two league cup. And people say where are they? And I said we're around somewhere and they say, oh, you've not got them on show. No, i don't go and look at my medals. I never feel the need to do it. It's up here. I've got the memories of doing that. I don't need to go and look at them to see what I've done, because I've got the memories of doing that. That's what you want. You want to make memories. You want to remember the good times. You want to remember when people supported you, you know, and who was the ones that stood by you at difficult times. That's what I was explaining to the girls and the boys at Oxford.
Speaker 2:You know, remember your teammates sitting around for you, because they're the ones that will help you out in certain situations when you're playing or things aren't going well. There's someone there but they'll come and talk to you and help you along the way. Listen to your coaching staff and your manager. They'll give you the best advice. Don't listen to people on social media, because they're just there, you know. When you do well, give you applause. And when you're playing bowling, just criticise it. Just have a group that you trust and believe in and they're going to give you good messages about how you're doing and make sure that you're good and safe and in the right place, and that's all you've got.
Speaker 2:You know you can say the memories afterwards. I've got five great memories, five great years with memories from Liverpool. You know I can remember all the games that I want to remember A lot of crap ones I played in. I don't want to remember them. I want to get them to the back of the memory, out of the way. I don't want to remember them. But the good times absolutely. And I'll tell you what. In five years I had some outstanding times there. They were brilliant.
Speaker 1:Do you have a favourite memory?
Speaker 2:Funny enough, i asked that question quite a lot. When we go and do talks and all that, i think making your debut for the club, you know as a kid, as I said, 10, 11, 12, you know no one really wants you. You get your break, looks like it might not happen, and then you end up at Liverpool. You end up at Liverpool and you're making your debut. Wow, i mean how your fortunes change And for me that was one of them.
Speaker 2:Games I always mentioned three games That one, when we beat nothing on four is five-nil After the semi-final, and the Everton game after the FA Cup final, after what happened at Hillsborough. They're the three games And a city after Hillsborough that comes together in the way that it did just typified Liverpool as a city and the people are there. You know that was. It was a game we couldn't lose. It was a game we didn't want to play in After Hillsborough.
Speaker 2:I didn't want to play in that season. The rest of the season, to be honest, i didn't think there was any real point. But then when you're forced into it by you know the football in public to say you've got to play not the football but the football owner who was in charge of the league in the cup and saying, look, you've got to play on. We did what we had to do and you know we tried to respect the memories of the people who had passed away and the family members that were there still hurting from their losses. And you just try to ease that pain a little bit By winning the final No.
Speaker 1:Let's come on to where we've talked about Liverpool. Like I said in the beginning, it would be wrong of me not to ask you about your goal against England in the 88 Euros. Tell me about it, Ray. come on All its beautiful glory.
Speaker 2:Well, listen, in the build up to it it was all once again about England and how successful they're going to be at the Euros. There's a good chance that they could win it once again And there's no doubt. England had their top team. You had the likes of Linneker up front, you had Barnes, you had Beersley, all the players were there. They're the top teams, top players. But one thing I do remember Jack Charm, manager of Ireland, saying he has you know what, we've got a real chance And I don't think anyone, even in Ireland, thought we would be England going in here. But Jack did. Jack had this real confidence to do it. And listen, we rode a lot. We had been gamed. You know Aldo came on and created few chances for Linneker, which sure keeper, made some save, got great blocks and hit the post, but just went wide-winded. It looks like we're going to score. We ended up winning that with Wimar Gold.
Speaker 2:And have you ever looked at again whoever was direct in the footage of the match when the ball got played over and I headed over Shelton and to the back of the net and I run over to the corner. I'm followed by John Aldridge and Ronnie Wheeler, my two Liverpool teammates. So as I'm running over there, the camera goes off of me. It goes straight to John Aldridge, because I must have thought there's no way he scored to his head. It must have been Aldridge. So I pan back to Aldo and he has me on my own. Well, i was celebrating. Then Ronnie gets to me and then John's there. But it was an incredible feeling.
Speaker 2:Afterwards when we won the game I went into the changing room and spoke to John Barnes and Peter Beasley. They had changed shirts with John and they were completely devastated. But I remember Jack Charlton saying to me don't you ever do that again. And I said what? what score against England? Because you know he was a World Cup winner in England. I said what score against England? He said no score that early. He says that was the longest 84 minutes of my life.
Speaker 1:Well, it made a lot of scouts as happy? Yeah, i'm sure it did, but you know, that's another knot in your belt. You know a memory that will last a lifetime and grandkids and their kids and everything that you go down in Liverpool Folklore as well as Irish Folklore as well. So, you know, thank you for playing for Liverpool Football Club. You know, again, i've been blessed to see part of the 70s teams, but the 80s teams for me were just phenomenal, and you know, and now I'm seeing Klopp's team play some amazing football. Not so much this season, you know. Hopefully it's just a one-off, you know season And we get back to challenging for the title, but they, you know, from the bottom of my heart, i really appreciate you coming on.
Speaker 2:I mean, listen, it was absolutely my pleasure to come and talk to you, but it was my pleasure to play for Liverpool. You know that's it's something that you work for, it's something that you dream about, you know, when you're a kid. you want to play the very best. You want to play for the best teams and win trophies, and I was fortunate enough to do that with Liverpool Football Club, and it doesn't matter if you played for Liverpool in 1900s right through to today. it is always an honour to represent this great club. Every day, every week, every game, every year is something special, something to be all, and to be part of the club's rich history and to have done a little bit to help along the way was just a dream come true from that point of view.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, we'll leave it on that, but thanks again And you know, thank you everyone for tuning in. Please like and subscribe all that good stuff and we'll see you next time.
